I’ve been poking around Kenpotalk again, and I found this thread about how techniques fit into a system. The original poster was pondering the idea that at some point, techniques become a hindrance to self-defense, as the constant memorization leads to a if this / then do this technique mentality. I still think that techniques can and should be examples of principles, giving a jumping off point for exploration and application. How do you feel techniques fit into the big picture?
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Matt, I read the “thread” which u referenced. I would have to tend to agree with the writer. This, as well, is so often the criticism of Kenpo by other Arts and practioners. Particularly by UFC/MMA, GJJ/BJJ, Judo, SCJ, Aikido, Muay Thai, etc, practioners… that Kenpo is “ineffective” in a “real” fight, that it is “bogged down” in “rigid techniques” that are unrealistic (i.e. standing in a horsestance, a straight right punch comes in, you do a technique). Well, at least until we use our HANDS or Low Kicks!!!Really, how many Kenpo practioners have EVER pulled off ANY technique as practised in sparring or a real fight? Answer: A small %, a few times ever at best!!! Unless you train and train and train in Sparring techniques, and “incorporate” or otherwise “adapt” the “dry training” techniques to sparring or “aliveness” or “real life” situational fights/defense, then these techniques will not beable to be utilized and may (or will) leave you stuck, flat footed, unable to do anything of value. The result will be that you will get the bleep beat out of you, or in “real life” seriously injured or killed.
I know for myself, personally, that for the most part in studying Kenpo (up to and including after I earned my Shodan) that I felt the the techniques we learned, trained in, and practised could not be used in sparring or a real fight. So I questioned what was their value, their purpose. I felt “stuck”, like my feet were in mud. Also meaning that I felt like my mind, reactions, spirit, abilities were “stuck in mud”. But I suppose I never did enough sparring or sparring technique training. I had a good first instructor, who was a superb fighter, kicker, etc. So I learned quite a lot of excellent sparring techniques to get the opponent offensively as well as very good defensive ones. But just not enough.
I mean, even pulling off some variation of Combo #3 in sparring is going to be difficult, because the opponent is simply just NOT going to commit himself, his punch, to such a degree AND he is going to be too quick to back out of there for you to pull it off. Of course, some variation of #6, #7, and #8 are done all the time in sparring.
So, not too long after I earned my Shodan, I seriously injured my lower back training in Judo. Also, at this time, there were serious “issues” with the Villari Schools, which I need not discuss. So I essentially Left Kempo. I studied some Judo, SCJ, Aikido, Escrima, “real life” Self defense, weapons defense, etc..
What I discovered, learned, was the many “deficiencies” in the Kempo training. Like the first time I sparred instructor at SCJ, and he told me my Guard (to arms up in front) was out too far in front of me. I said “what? what are u talking about?” Then a moment later he just went SWISH!!!! and he had me face down on the mat with an armbar applied. He had just quickly moved in on me, when I blinked, grabbed my forward most fist with both his hands, gave a little tug, then turned his entire body into the back side of my arm so that my elbow was under his armpit. Instance armbar. Little things like that.
But don’t get me wrong, I’m not trashing Kempo. There are/were alot of things, training, techniques which worked great. Like at SCJ, one time I sparred another Black Belt. He charged in on me, I backed up a bit, then nailed him in the solars with a “Stuff kick” (i.e. defensive, counter front ball kick off the rear leg as you are retreating).
Also, there have been alot of Kempo techniques and training which (once I balanced the tech with the other Arts’ rules and protocol) when I used them in other Arts produced surprising results (for the other practioner that is, i.e. he going down)., Such as Scissors Takedown in Judo (albeit, the way I do it violates Judo’s rules). But there are too many to discuss here and now.
But, one thing, how I learned to do a Roundhouse Kick (a number of diff ways from a number of diff Kempo instructors) is far superior to any other Art, including Muay Thai or TKD. The way Muay Thai throws a Roundhouse, as witnessed in UFC/MMA is NUTS!! As evidenced by the number of compound fractures of the lower leg videod taped. Further, Kempo’s hand techniques and defensives against kicks are for the most part unknown in other Arts. I mean, I learned how to defend against Roundhouse, Spinning Back Kick, Side, Front in so many diff ways and situations, that when I employ them against other practioners they are shocked. They’ve never seen them before.
But to continue. What I learned was that one has to be less “rigid”. That self defense does not work out of a Horsetance. It has it’s place, for TRAINING, but a “natural stance” is best. One can also employ an Aikido stance, or even a Kempo T-Stance or Cat Stance. Of course, attacking or retreating with a Twist Stance does really mess up other Artists. hee hee hee, togehter with Tiger Hand techs. But one needs to be more “relaxed”, go with the flow, maintain “mushin” (clear, open, empty, accepting mind), be as one with yourself and one with your opponent, be in harmony with your Ki and the Ki or your opponent (apply chi is a plus!!!). That one must think NOT in winning/defeating your opponent but in NOT losing, in surviving. Work off your opponent’s actions in a continuous flow. So that it is not a one shot deal of a technique, but a continuous flow of connected “pieces” of techniques for each new situation.
For example: if an opponent comes at you, throwing a continual series of jabs/punches, pulling off a Kempo tech (i.e. #3 or whatever) is going to be virtually impossible. But if one becomes not “rigid” and not “stuck” on particular “technique” but instead adapts a “clear” mind, in harmony with your opponent, relaxes, and goes with continuous flow……then what one might do is utilize something such as continuous rising,up cutting sword arms in a circular motion. Thus cutting and deflect his punches. While you move back, to side, around, moving your head out of the way…….WAITING… until you “sense” an opening and opportunity to counter, turn to the offensive, and strike. One needs to be almost in a trance like state.
I had turned one very excellent lesson from one Kenpo (under Nick Cerio) Instructor. He told me that when sparring or in a fight, the one thing that you want to do is NOT to focus on one thing/one point of the opponent, the key is to see NOTHING……and to see EVERYTHING!!!
This is one key aspect of Aikido, and is also partly incorporated in Judo, SCJ, etc. That thru relaxation, sensing, touch, ki, harmony, centering, etc, etc. etc..one is able to adapt to any fight situation, not by rigid, “dry training” techniques, but by applicatoin of underlying “principles”.
So, in Kempo, it is fine to TRAIN in specific set, rigid, dry techniques, in a Horsestance, punch comes in , etc, etc, etc. But on MUST search for, discover, and UNDERSTAND the underlying “principle” what is being taught. Then one must then come out of that set technique and work it in a 1,000 diff ways… right punch, left punch, straight, jab, hook, sucker punch, from an angle, high, low, upper cut, 1-2, kick then punch,punch then kick, sparring, sparring 2 or more, real life situational attacks, real life street fighting (i.e. not in a gi in the dojo, but in regular clothes in the street, 3 piece suit, in your home, etc,.) In this way the “principle” of the technique will emerge and will be discovered and understood.
Another point, is the points on the body of the opponent to control and to strike are important as well. With “control” being the operative word here.
What is the old adage? If you have to think about it, it is too late………If you have to react, it is still too late. You need to be as one with your opponent. To do this you need to have a clear, unencumbered, accepting mind and spirit.
So rigidity is not good. One must be like a coiled cobra, ready to spring into action at the first opening.
As I learned and always say….”All you need is a fraction of a second and a fraction of an inch”….then…. BAMM!!!! continuous flow of attacks, and you don’t stop until it is over and you “control” your opponent and the situation.
Thank you for reading this LONG comment.
I realize that my mouth runneth over. That I am long winded, rabbling a bit, and am not writing that well to get my point across.
So, let me try to be more succinct. Ha ha ha!!!
Kempo tech training is fine. But it’s problem is the “one shot” aspect of it. That is unrealistic in sparring and real life fights. Now, granted, in real life most often situations will be some idiot suddenly throwing a punch at you or attacking you in a “one shot deal”. Then you can use Kempo techs. But if it changes into a fight, then it becomes fighting techs.
All I meant to say, above, is that Kempo tech provides the base for self defense and fighting. That once you’ve done Combos 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, … etc 1,000 times in a horsestance against a straight in right punch (which is very unlikely to happen in real life), then you need to break out of that and do them in many diff situation including sparring/fighting. Spar against an opponent, and tell yourself (or your student) TO DO #3 combo in sparring, and see what happens.
Consider Kempo tech training in horsestance, right punch comes in as “training wheels” for a kid learning to ride a bike. That is fine, for awhile, but at some point in time the “training wheels” have to come off, and the kid as to learn to ride the bike of his own. To balance, to sense.
The same with Kempo techs, they are “training”. The key for Kempo Black Belts and Instructors to do, to look for, are the specific, minute, key points of the underlying “principles” of the tech. For example: Doing #3 Combo is fine, but what are the key “principles”? What are the key points? What elements are applicable to any situation? Be it vs. a right punch, left, sparring, fighting, knife, gun, outside the arm, inside, vs. a spin around back fist, with a kick, w/o a kick, etc.. What are the key elements of #3 Combo? i.e. couldn’t #3 be applied to a left hook punch to your face, with you working inside the opponent’s left punch? Therefore what are the key elements of #3, the key “prinicples” which are the same for doing it against a left hook punch as against a right straight in punch?
Further, aren’t those same key elements then adaptable to if the opponent comes at you with a knife, or has a gun, or even throws a front kick?
What is the “principle” of #3? Now, consider it, do it, with a clear mind (“mushin”), with a “see nothing, see everything” trance like state, sense the opponent, be in harmony with him, work off his actions, “catch” his Ki and employ it to work against him. Where does this take you? Where does this take #3?
What points on the body of the opponent is #3 applied, the key elements of the underlying “principle” that is? Are those points carved in stone or merely a guide? Are they truly necessary or can you work past them, beyond them, continue to another point?
So, what am I driving at? Is executing #3 merely a series of a number of diff actions. i.e. punch comes in, step outside and forward of the punch a bit, left inward cross palm block to oustide of punch, lean out-forward-and down a bit, right punch to groin or solars, grab Rt should w Lt hand, pull down, Rt rolling backfist to temple, etc.?
Or is it, the underlying “principles” something else all together.
Another thing I tried to teach students, when I had taught, was “The Willow and The Oak”. i.e. be like a Willow Tree until it is time to be like an Oak Tree.
So for #3 what is the objective?
As I see it, it is this…….1) be loose and relaxed, 2) stand in a natual stance, 3) hands and arms relaxed at your side or up in front of you, forearms close to your chest, hands relaxed and HALF opened. Not a closed fist but not an open hand, 4) “sense” your opponents actions before he even knows what he is going to do himself (Aiki), 5) Whether it is a Rt str8 punch, or a Lt Str8 punch, or a left hook, or a Front Kick, or a Spin Around Back Fist, the key is to …..6) pick up that the strike as it is coming in, 7) move off YOUR centerline slightly so the brunt of the strike is not going to hit you, 8) in Simultaneous movement….a) slight step in and forward with Lt foot (if the situation permits it), b) slight lean to the Lt and forward, c) have your Ki and body mass moving slightly forward into opponent, d) a Lt Cross Palm Block to a “key point” on opponent’s body (more to come on this) COUPLED with a Rt hand strike under your Lt Palm Block to a “key point” on opponent, then e) “control” the opponent’s striking arm with your Lt hand/palm in an appropriate manner for the situation, then f) continuously flow a Rt hand strike up over your Lt forearm, striking to a “key point” up high on the opponent (i.e. temple, face, throat, eye, nose, jaw, etc.), then g) follow up with continuous flow of attacking/controlling techniques until the opponent is under your “control” and the attack is “defused”. What these follow up techniques may be, will depend on the situation, and where you are in relation to the opponent’s body at the time.
Does anyone AGREE or DISAGREE?
All of these occurs in a fraction of a second, simultaneously, in a continuous flow, with your Ki, mass, and momentum going INTO the opponent at all times from the start. Thus there is no need for BIG movements. Everything is ONE motion. ONE thing, be as ONE with yourself and your opponent. Don’t think about it, don’t react, simply BE!! As the Willow branch blows in the wind, so do you move in harmony with your opponent’s actions.
What are the key points on the opponent’s body? If it is a str8 in Rt punch, then it is not that you are blocking at the outside of his Rt arm with a hard cross palm block. No, it is that you accept his energy, his ki, and you “assist it” along past your centerline, with a light touch of a palm block or cutting in knife block…. TOGETHER WITH…. a Rt strike to groin, solar, ribs, wherever. So that you draw off of his Ki coming past you as you direct your Ki forward into him. Then again, you strike with a light touch Rt strike, but which will not be “light” at all, it will be a powerful strike.
Now the specic “key points” on his arm that you will block at, depend on the situation. His punch may go deep past you, it may be short so his body is a ways from you, or he may be “teasing” you, throwing short jabs. But in essence, the “key points” will be to the outside of his Rt arm, at the a) wrist, b) forearm, or c) just above the elbow at the tricep tendon (or as close as you can get).
We already talked about the striking points for the Rt hand.
After that, as we all know, there are many possible follow ups.
That is how I see #3………..
Comments or Criticism???
The same “principles” can be applied to a Lt hook punch, and you work inside of his Lt arm.
They can also be applied to a Kick, say a Rt front kick. As the kick comes in, you “instinctively” execute #3. But in this situation your Lt Palm Block will go to the “key point” on the opponent’s body of just above his knee and on the outside. As you move out and inward, off or your centerline so that his kick and his Ki go past you.
Then, as for your Rt hand strike, you would bring your Rt hand over your Lt forearm not under it, and strike to the solars or ribs, as a groin strike would be somewhat impossible. OR… you can bring your Rt hand/arm over your Lt hand/forearm and then cut downward with a Rt knifehand/sword and “scoop” behind his Rt knee from outside his leg. Instantly bring your Lt hand up to guard his Rt hand and/or Lt hand for a strike. Scooping behind his Rt knee with your Rt Sword and redirecting his Ki back into him as you move forward into and past him with your ki. You can place your Lt hand on his Rt shoulder to down him onto his back.
These are all applications of the “principles” of #3 Combo.
Food for Thought!!!
Todd ————————————————————————– I will finish reading when the kids are sleeping.
i disagree, i have defended myself Todd 5 times successfully.now, it wasn’t an entire dm/kempo, but startes or pieces of them, for example, the first time i defended myself , i came home late from work, and my brothers friend snuck behind me and tried to lock a sleeper hold on me from behind.I quickly monkey pawed his forearm, right stomped his right foot, then my right foot half mooned behind his right foot, then i right rear elbowed his right baby ribs, then left rear elbowed his left baby ribs, then spun counter clockwise 180 degrees off the left elbow, facing him, and quickly left thrust his solars, followed by a right reverse tigers mouth to his groin, and pulled up as hard as i could, with my left hand across my chest in a check position/ready to deliver a strike next, he screamed, just like a woman, to stop, stop, so i front thrust kicked him back to his solars, as i let go of the claw grip.
(he is 6 foot 2 ,230, i am 169, 5 ‘8 at time.)
Todd, i also have to say, that practicing not only on your right side, but also on your left side helps with reaction and flow as well.
Remember one time in dojo, i performed dm2 left handed, then at the end, i went into dm11, the whole grab the leg by the ankle, pull over, knee to spine, etc.etc.
if you play with the techniques, and let it flow, you will be amazed at “What Pops” out!
I can also understand why alot of fighting/defending yourself pops out like muay thai/mma.
I can only say it is all on how you practice.
I disagree also. Kenpo will work extreamly well in real life situations…I have used it more times than I can count.I was a bouncer for 8 years and teach defensive tactics to law enforcement an corrections officers. One of the great things about kenpo/kajukenbo is it allows you to incorporate whatever works and basically absorb it in to the system if necessary. I agree with Mark ..It is all in how you practice.
I didn’t say that Kempo DID NOT work in real life situations, what I said was…. trying to do a Kempo Combination #’d technique, as you are taught and practice it, in horsestance with a straight punch coming in… won’t work or you will most likely not be able to pull it off in a dojo sparring or a street fight. Unless it is Combination # 6, 7, 8 or something. Simply because, unless the guy is a complete dolt, he isn’t going to “commit himself” AND he isn’t going to just stand there and not react, pull back, retreat, cover up, counter, etc.. You simply do not have the time, convenience, nor luxury to pull off a compete Combo in sparring or a street fight. Unless it is one of the simplier, shorter, quicker ones.
That is all I was saying. I wasn’t commenting at all on Kempo as a whole, or other aspects of Kempo. I was just saying that unless you practice Sparring/Fighting Techniques, and pick out those “pieces” of The Combinations which you can actually do in sparring, then you won’t beable to pull off a Combo fighting. So I wasn’t talking about the numerous hand strikes, or spinning, or not getting choked out etc.
I apologize for any confusion or offense.
I use Kempo, my Kempo training all the time, too!!
I WAS NOT talking about Kempo in its entirety, i.e. the jujitsu/chin na self defense techniques if someone grabs you, or any “free form” techniques that you may employ off an attack, i.e. “going with the flow” and what the opponent gives you,what openings there are. As you 2 guys talked about in your Comments just above.
I was saying that trying to pull off a Combination, as you are taught and train, will be nearly impossible in dojo sparring or a street fight. You may, of course, get bits and pieces of a Kempo Combination #’d technique, i.e. the first part of Combo #3.
So YES Kempo will work in real life situations, the TOTALITY of Kempo…. the hands, stances, movements, short direct kicks, Animals, Shaolin, Chin na, chi, , blocking and trapping systems. Which most other Arts DO NOT have.
The question I posed was “how many people, how many times have ever been able to pull off a Combination (or other set Kempo Punch Technique) during sparring?”… I would hazard to say, rarely.. except perhaps 1st part of 1, part of 3, 6, 7. 8&9 (which people do alot in tournament sparring), you might beable to pull off 10, 12…eh???, could try 14….. etc, etc… To pull off a complete Combination in sparring is next to impossible.
That is what I was talking about… Combinations as taught and practised as “dry, static techniques.”
Yes one should practice both left and rt hand punches, but also hook punches, sucker punches, upper cuts, jabs, crosses, spin around back fists, etc.. and seek to apply the “principles” of the Combinations to a wide variety of situational attacks and fighting. In order to discover the “key elements” of each Combination, all without being rigid and burden with the idea that you must execute the Combo perfectly the way you were trained. If that if your mind set, then you will become “stuck” and you will get killed.
I guess I’m not familar with YOUR nomenclature… what does “dm2” mean? I’m assuming it means Combination #2, but what does “dm” mean?
Here is a partial example of what I was talking about in regards to Combo #3, in video clip below (if it plays). What are the “key elements” of Combo #3, the “underlying principles”? Which can be adapted to and employed against other attacks besides a Rt Straight in punch.
When I do Combo #3, I will usually block slightly with a Lt Palm Block, not just merely keep up on guard. But listen, in the video clip, to what Master Brassard is saying about “drawing his energy” either forward, with him, whatever his exact words are. But drawing him into your strikes. So Combo #3 is not merely ducking off to the side to avoid the punch. AS he says, punching to the groin is a low probability.
Matt wrote at the outset…..
“The original poster was pondering the idea that at some point, techniques become a hindrance to self-defense, as the constant memorization leads to a if this / then do this technique mentality. I still think that techniques can and should be examples of principles, giving a jumping off point for exploration and application” ………
……….. I agree with this 100%. So either I miswrote what I was trying to say and get across, or you misread or misinterpreted what I wrote.
If there is confusion, then I apologize.
The original proposition was whether the numerous “techniques” (from this I mean Combinations practiced from a horsestance, etc) and the large amount of “memorization” of “material” is, in and of itself a Hindurance to “self defense” (which I take to mean real life situation self defense). That such tends to lead to a “if someone does this specific thing to you THEN you MUST do THIS specific technique to them” EXACTLY (as practiced in “dry, rigid, static training”). I agree that is DOES… .it took me Years to break out of that “mentality” and to not be “stuck” in it. To be more “fluid”, circular, angular, work off the attacker, to seize the opportunities presented. Even if those do not fit with how a Combination technique is suppose to go.
So yes, as I said, it is the “principles” of the technique, of the Combination which is “key”. Not doing the Combination exactly and to completion. You then take these “principles” and “explore” and adapt to other “application” (as I described previously) against a wide variety of “unexpected” attack scenarios. Cuz in the real world People DO NOT Half Moon in and Punch straight in with their Rt fist.
What was it that Bruce Lee always said in regards to his Jeet Kune Do?…… ummm??? …… I forget now!! ……”fighting w/o form” or “movement w/o form”???? …… his premise was NOT to be “chained” to a set patterns, form, technique, stance, combination, or movement. That it must be “free form”.
Personally, I found a great deal of the Combination training to be a severe “hindurance”. What I found to be more beneficial and “freeing” was the Blocking, Trapping, and Deflecting systems, and the Animal systems.
YOu can see in this other video clip of Master Brassard (starting at 2:20 of video)…..but the finish is not so good, and not necessary. That is one thing I found with Kempo Combinations and techniques, for the most part, the intitial elements are great but the finishes are pointless, redundant, unnecessary, bad, and/or not really “finishing off” the opponent nor “controlling” him.
Here is a 3rd clip of Master Brassard doing Combination #44, another variation of Combo #3. you can see in early part of the clip (approx at 1:15) how he does in fact discuss the inherent problems of doing the Combo out of a Horsestance. That it should be done form a “forward stance” (as he calls it), or from a “natural stance” (I say). This is what I was talking about in regards to “dry, rigid, static training” in a Horsetance. That you get “stuck” and are not able to move freely and quickly. Now, I’m using different terminology than Master Brassard, but we are both stressing the same point.
Here, in #44, he is not grabbing the opponent’s Rt shoulder with his Lt hand. He is continuing with another strike with his Lt.
As I said previously… Combo #3, is “training wheels”. #44, is now more “free flowing” (and it can be even more so, if you like). As I said previously… once you start, don’t stop until it’s over!! Going from A to Z is all one thing, one movement.
As for the “finish”, again, not so good and unnecessary. Once he strikes with the Left, he may be better served to “finish” by “diffusing” and/or “controlling” the opponent and situation, rather than go into the “long and complicated” finish he does do. He could kick him in the groin from behind with his Lt foot, he could do a Kote Gaeshi wristlock throw to his punching arm, he could choke him out, lay him out, or continue with more continous strikes to vital parts of the body.
It is clear that even Master Brassard is not too thrilled with the finish as it is designed. Although when he does #44 again, beginning at 4:05 of clip, he does 1st part of finish better. But as for the rest, still not so good. I personally, if I got to that point (of dropping opponent to ground on his back) would probably drop my Left Knee onto his neck, and grab up his Rt arm and apply a jujitsu armlock/wristlock. Thereby “diffusing” the situation and “controlling” the attacker.
This is ALL I was trying to say before.
Among other things, techniques are like ideas. When you go to school you are introduced to new ideas which increases your knowledge base and (hopefully) sparks new ideas within you. Same is (should be) true of techniques. You learn new techniques and it broadens your horizons on the science of movement. However debating whether or not this technique works in this or that situation is about as productive as getting mad at the mountain for obstructing your view of the horizon, but that is only my opinion.
todd, you are right im from west coast and we say defensive maneuvers here. also you are right brassards way is the way we teach at our school either right or left foot forward but we also have hands on guard as well.as for bruce lee, i truly believe wing chun and working with gene lebell helped boost and create jeetkundo as well as boost his fighting level. my comments above were just my personal experiences geared at what kempo has done for me as i strivfor proper practice. recently we worked on a dragons circle of 7 of us and you do not know who will attack you and with by how, ie grabs, punches, shoot for your leg, etc…. sounds easy right? well it was interesting for me to say the least as only about 6 dms mixed with about 9 pieces of kempos came out all mixed together. at first i was upset as the 5th and 6th degrees looked flawless but then after wards they came up to me and asked How did you go into a pendulum neckbreak when he was bent over, then simulate a right eagle talon to throat right knee pin?
I have to admit i said it just came out i saw oppurtunity and it was like a click reaction.