I got a comment, which I did approve on the chat room page. It was the equivalent of an unsigned note, as the name was “a concerned kempo student” and the email address given was fake (they were concerned about me having such information). It reads as follows, “Your combo’s after 55 are terribly off. In fact, the 60s are nothing like how they are taught. You may want to go back to someone who is teaching this material today.”
I mean, it is true, I don’t teach many of these combinations today. I do, however know many folks who do, and as luck would have it, I credited my sources. Now I don’t guarantee that any particular combination is listed ‘the right way’, but given the large cross section of the kempo community that has contributed, the vast number of 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th dan teachers who have chipped in, and the triangulation involved in combining all of these resources I am confident that we (yes we, not me) have put together the most comprehensive listing of (Shaolin) kempo techniques anywhere. However, I would welcome submissions correcting the mistakes and would gladly include ‘a concerned kempo student’ as a contributor. I’d get in touch to invite you, but sadly I don’t have your email. So if you’ve got them, and want to contribute, bring it on. If you have them but want to keep them secret to lord your superior knowledge over the rest of the kempo community, well, you are part of the reason I started this project in the first place.
When the anonymous kempo student said that is not how they are being taught, what I believe he meant was that is not how they are being taught in his/her school.
What I have observed is a fair amount of variation in material taught after fourth dan, or even earlier. Not just what combination or forms, but differences in the techniques as well. This is well documented at this site. There are examples of multiple examples of certain combinations.
Personally, I’m good with this. One master’s take on Kempo may not match another master’s interpretation. This can lead to improvement and growth of the system.
At some point, a serious advanced student will be dealing mostly in principles rather just mimicking techniques shown to him.
Mark- I agree 100%. I have seen the same thing and I am not even sure an ‘official 108 techniques ‘ ever existed and I am okay with that.
While I agree, as well, that many of the techniques listed on the database greatly vary from how my school does them, I don’t necessarily see a problem. There are 3+ ways to do nearly every combination from what I have seen on the master level. Different masters teaching differently, Villari purposely changing how he taught the technique to hide the “real” way from his students, and people making up gaps in their own comprehension of the art appear to contribute to all of this. I have close to 50 combinations, and perhaps 50-60% of them (more so the ones under 30) closely resemble what it listed on here, with perhaps a few (3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 14, 21, 26) being identical. Interesting to see how the style continues to evolve.
My point was that while your intent was sincere, posting videos of variations to certain combos lull some into thinking they can learn by video. Instead of watching videos, those at the rank who should be learning these high rank techniques should instead be taught, and practice, with an instructor who learned it and have been practicing it for a long time. There are plenty of quality instructors out there. Your lord complex comment was rude, disrepectful to what I thought you were preaching and the exact opposite of my intent – I for one need to continue to be taught and practice with other colleagues and instructors to ensure I keep up my knowledge and skill level – videos that are variations of the traditional teaching are something entirely different.
Videos have their place but have them vetted by people who are certain they are correct and variations – are they variations or really something entirely different that suits to personal need of the one who adjusted it (either it fits their style, they forgot the original, or wasn’t fully taught it to begin with)
The comment about their being so many variations over time is an excuse. There are plenty of people out there who know the traditional form and combo without relying on a variation.
Thank you for returning to continue the conversation, Kenpo student. I think that you have a good point – learning solely by video is not a sound proposition. However, I have trained for many years in kempo, and most of the folks who have contributed have trained for similar amounts of time or longer. Some of the listings from the higher numbers came from 8th and 9th dans, and some of the descriptions came from a particular high ranking black belt from California’s notes.
I think the conceit that there is a ‘traditional’ body of Shaolin Kempo canon flies in the face of history and evidence. There are plenty of people alive who confirmed to me that in some cases, there were 30 combinations in the whole system when they trained, or that they were there when certain segments of the combinations were ‘outsourced’ by Villari, or that material changed from year to year when Fred Villari visited. It was certainly his prerogative – it’s his system. It just doesn’t jive with the mystical 108 from the Shaolin Temple story.
Van – your experience is pretty typical. There is a vast variation between organizations and even within organizations by region. I feel that there is a core of material that makes up the bulk of the kempo experience, and that variation is natural.
Additionally, Kenpo Student, my goal was less about learning than about evaluating. If you had access to all of the combinations, it would be more about process than content when you learned from your teacher. If the content of every lesson was available free of charge, then it was now up to your teacher to get you to proficiency faster rather than you paying a hostage fee to unlock the secret knowledge.
Your last point is exactly mine but we come to it differently – I don’t think it’s a teachers role to teach me more and more comboniatios, even at high rank, it’s that we as students should be never stop working on our proficiency. I have seen too often students trying to learn more and more techniques without mastering the material they learned over perhaps not below black but since. It becomes a silky arms race at 3,, 4, 5, 6 Dan etc. versus truly mastering what you have. I appreciate your passion but disagree when I know some of these were vetted by people who didn’t learn them properly.
I know my comment about ‘lording secret knowledge’ seems harsh, but try to see it from my perspective with the help of this ridiculous analogy. You (virtually) strolled into a pig farmer convention and told the farmers there who had years and years of pig farming experience, from a cross section of the entire pig farming industry that half of what they knew was wrong and that you knew it was wrong, but couldn’t tell us pig farmers why. You even suggested that we head back to learn from someone who was teaching ‘pig farming’ today, even though most folks here are currently learning from 7th / 8th / 9th dans and a few from the founder (of pig farming) himself. For some reason I wanted a bit more credibility from you (or evidence) before changing my farm over to your ways. You may be 100% completely correct. I would be thrilled if I was wrong and you gave me incontrovertible evidence of me being wrong and a list of the correct ways of doing these combinations. I just think that your claim requires a bit of evidence. I know you don’t want to get ‘blackballed’ by whatever organization you are in, but doesn’t that set up a tiny red flag for you too?
I appreciate your analogy but you made my point. I want people to go to the convention and learn not rely on videos with variations from the convention website years do the road. Look at combo one, Mr. Dwire says the original was taught with a finish of a thrust not a front punch. Your writing contradicts it and says it’s a front punch and you are correct. I prefer going to the less flashy farmer whose farm has been there for years and watch him every day take care of his land and his staff. That’s how you get better.
The key to all of this is practice. I wouldn’t want some brown belt picking up bad habits by watching some of these as much as I wouldn’t expect to watch the NBA finals for 5 years and expect to make the Celtics the next year. Rather if I had the time, I would find a great coach and practice with passion.
As you and Mark said, it’s what you are taught at school but I prefer the one who hasn’t self promoted and left to a school for vanity, taking classes one a year, forgetting to remember what they learned and making their own variations. I also wouldn’t call it original unless you watched Pesare, Cerio or Gascon do it over and over again for years. Also, if it’s not what is being taught in many schools, it’s probably not the commonly accepted original. You quote there was 30 original, combos when there was only 26 (like the alphabet). So in many respects this conversation is less about originality and more about how people use the videos to try to improve.
I see so many people calling themselves Master these days so what do I know, I am just a student, to borrow your phrase, you are the reason I continue to take classes after 20+ years. Enjoy the videos, I just hope people don’t try to remember combos with them and God forbid don’t teach from them. Good luck Matt.
Sorry – I seem to have left you with some misconceptions. I’ll try to sort them out as best I can. I also apologize for the delay in approving your comment – I had some internet trouble last night (Darn you Joaquin!) and I have to approve yours manually.
No offense intended, just bad luck.
First, the ’30’ number was well into things after Villari was up and running. There were not 26 combinations initially, although the idea of the alphabet traces back to Kajukenbo. There were about ten combinations when SGM Pesare began teaching and he increased the number to about 22. This was the case at the time of his death, and as far as I know is still the case at the Kaito Gakko in Rhode Island today.
Secondly, as you may not have noticed, some of this information actually does come from personal interaction (by myself but mostly by the contributors) with Fred Villari, Tom Ingargiola, Nick Cerio, Nancy Cerio, Victor ‘Sonny’ Gascon, Walter Godin, Charles Mattera, Steve DeMasco, Jim Bryant, Bob Nohelty, and yes, Senior Grand Master S. George Pesare. Is there someone missing that I should include?
Over the years, and as I moved and changed dojos, things changed. Often they changed back. The Pinans changed drastically between the early and late 90’s within several organizations. I have been shown techniques a variety of ways by the same person. I have seen forms change from one visit by Fred Villari to the next. I don’t think there is as cohesive a canon of Shaolin Kempo as you believe there is.
Finally, I want you to rest assured that I don’t teach from these videos. I still do Kempo, but I learned an entirely different system and teach that one. I still enjoy doing some of the Shaolin Kempo I used to do, but it’s more as an aside. I keep the archive as a service to those still in it. The system has evolved, it is now exploded into varied branches no longer under the control of any one organization. The folks who could best lay claim to it – Sonny Gascon, Walter Godin, S.George Pesare – have passed on. Everything else builds on their work. Just because it isn’t done the way you do it at your school doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It needs to be evaluated on its own merits – functional, biomechanical, practical – rather than any particular person’s opinion.
I was wholeheartedly agreeing with “don’t learn from videos”and then this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clUvbObfqz0
I can teach an entire class on variations of a single combination (#3 is a favorite for this). I have kempos and combinations that I teach differently depending on who I’m teaching. “Just do this” for an orange belt, “think about this” when teaching a green or brown belt, and “now apply these principles” when teaching it to black belts.
One of things I like about Kempo over “classic karate” is that it has the principle of fitting the system to fit the student rather forcing the student to fit the system. This was driven home when I taught a class of beginners consisting of women ranging from age 14 to mid 40s. Techniques that worked well for me (large male with lots of upper body strength), wasn’t going to work them. I had to go back to core principles and teach for the student’s strengths.
But then what the whatever do I know? I’m just coming up on a quarter century in Kempo with a decade of additional martial arts experience before that. As one of the Kempo masters I got train with put it, “Why listen to me, I’m just a guy in a half a Santa Claus suit.” A very calm, unassuming fellow, who I paid attention to, not because of the red top and lots of stripes on his belt, but because he was a really good teacher.
I still consider the “diversity” of techniques a feature. It means that people are thinking about their art, and not just parroting it. I don’t agree with all of it, but if it works for them, cool. Personally, I can’t watch some of the black belt form videos on this site. They just look wrong to me. All the right moves, and in the right order (at least to me), but the flow is wrong to my eye. Doesn’t mean I don’t support what Matt has done here. It’s brilliant as far as I’m concerned. Your mileage may vary.