Comments on: When does it become something else? http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/ Let's get back to Kempo... Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:38:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Neal Martin http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/comment-page-1/#comment-446 Neal Martin Mon, 25 May 2009 15:31:43 +0000 http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/#comment-446 I believe if you train for long enough you will eventually alter certain techniques to suit yourself. I do Kempo Ju Jitsu and it's a style that contains an awful lot of techniques; you couldn't hope to master them all in one lifetime. However, over the years I have found myself gravitating towards certain techniques, ones that suit me better to perform than others. Although I practice other techniques, and indeed add to the curriculum other techniques that I pick up elsewhere, I have found I have built up a core set of techniques that I will always react with first. In a sense I have formed by own curriculum. So I believe that because each individual is different, each individual should therefore have their own personalized curriculum. This is not to say you shouldn't learn new ones. You should. But embrace the techniques that feel most natural to you and give more time over to perfecting those ones. The fighting systems years ago were not so stuffed with techniques and I think there is some merit to this. There are so many techniques around now, and so many systems that pick and choose freely from them, building up large stores of techniques, that it can all be quite overwhelming at times trying to learn them all. In a way this can have a detrimental effect on ones training. You run the risk of becoming a jack of all trades and a master of none. I think you should personalize your training to suit you, but do so within the confines of the existing system in which you train. Boundaries are still needed to prevent things getting too convoluted and out of control. There has to be a limit to such personalization otherwise you just end up damaging the integrity of the original system. What you said about mastering the principles of a system and learning how to apply those principles is good advice. That way you keep the integrity of the original system. Good article. Good blog. I'll be coming back for more! I believe if you train for long enough you will eventually alter certain techniques to suit yourself. I do Kempo Ju Jitsu and it’s a style that contains an awful lot of techniques; you couldn’t hope to master them all in one lifetime. However, over the years I have found myself gravitating towards certain techniques, ones that suit me better to perform than others. Although I practice other techniques, and indeed add to the curriculum other techniques that I pick up elsewhere, I have found I have built up a core set of techniques that I will always react with first. In a sense I have formed by own curriculum. So I believe that because each individual is different, each individual should therefore have their own personalized curriculum. This is not to say you shouldn’t learn new ones. You should. But embrace the techniques that feel most natural to you and give more time over to perfecting those ones.

The fighting systems years ago were not so stuffed with techniques and I think there is some merit to this. There are so many techniques around now, and so many systems that pick and choose freely from them, building up large stores of techniques, that it can all be quite overwhelming at times trying to learn them all. In a way this can have a detrimental effect on ones training. You run the risk of becoming a jack of all trades and a master of none.

I think you should personalize your training to suit you, but do so within the confines of the existing system in which you train. Boundaries are still needed to prevent things getting too convoluted and out of control. There has to be a limit to such personalization otherwise you just end up damaging the integrity of the original system.

What you said about mastering the principles of a system and learning how to apply those principles is good advice. That way you keep the integrity of the original system.

Good article. Good blog. I’ll be coming back for more!

]]> By: Jason sexton http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/comment-page-1/#comment-40 Jason sexton Thu, 20 Mar 2008 22:29:35 +0000 http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/#comment-40 Jesse-You have a very valid point.Let me clarify something.When I speak of some one learning the basics,I don't mean a three year black belt who has only memorised some movement.I do however belive that after a period of years of serious training most of us will alter our technique to work for us.I certainly don't see any thing wrong with taking an honest look at our instructer,or their instructer.I personaly enjoy watching my teachers teacher.the way he approaches technique,and application is very different.this doesn't mean better,just different.You are very correct,we have to be open to our own faults,that is why I am always looking for new and more efficient ways to apply my material.If I see some one doing something better than me I will ask to pick their brain.one of the reasons I love this sight,is because many of the combo's are slightly differnt than mine.I practice the different versions to learn a different approach.I will never be able to practice with Nick cerio,or Fred villarie,or Prof. Emparado.I can only hope that dedication and honesty in my training will give me what I need.One other minor note if I seem to digress,or don't come across clear at times,I have dyslexia.Sometimes my thoughts get lost in translation.THANK YOU for the insight jesse Jesse-You have a very valid point.Let me clarify something.When I speak of some one learning the basics,I don’t mean a three year black belt who has only memorised some movement.I do however belive that after a period of years of serious training most of us will alter our technique to work for us.I certainly don’t see any thing wrong with taking an honest look at our instructer,or their instructer.I personaly enjoy watching my teachers teacher.the way he approaches technique,and application is very different.this doesn’t mean better,just different.You are very correct,we have to be open to our own faults,that is why I am always looking for new and more efficient ways to apply my material.If I see some one doing something better than me I will ask to pick their brain.one of the reasons I love this sight,is because many of the combo’s are slightly differnt than mine.I practice the different versions to learn a different approach.I will never be able to practice with Nick cerio,or Fred villarie,or Prof. Emparado.I can only hope that dedication and honesty in my training will give me what I need.One other minor note if I seem to digress,or don’t come across clear at times,I have dyslexia.Sometimes my thoughts get lost in translation.THANK YOU for the insight jesse

]]> By: Justin Terrien http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/comment-page-1/#comment-39 Justin Terrien Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:21:00 +0000 http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/#comment-39 Jesse, Your last post brings up an interesting point about what our teachers knew or did not know. I hope that this is getting bettter but I know when I was coming up through the ranks a lot of questions were answered with "thats just the way we do it". I thought when I became a black belt I would be let into the "secrets club" only to realize that the secrets left with an instructor before mine. This realization opened my eyes and allowed me to broaden my horizons. What I learned about the material after that came from all different sources including other arts. I think the archives are a great tool to have this material mapped out. I also think the next step is to get the applications of the forms, or atleast our understanding of the applications out there as well. Hopefully we will all gain a little more understanding then "oh thats just a guard". I know personally it always puts a smile on my face when someone shows me something about a form I never thought of before. Jesse,
Your last post brings up an interesting point about what our teachers knew or did not know. I hope that this is getting bettter but I know when I was coming up through the ranks a lot of questions were answered with “thats just the way we do it”. I thought when I became a black belt I would be let into the “secrets club” only to realize that the secrets left with an instructor before mine. This realization opened my eyes and allowed me to broaden my horizons. What I learned about the material after that came from all different sources including other arts. I think the archives are a great tool to have this material mapped out. I also think the next step is to get the applications of the forms, or atleast our understanding of the applications out there as well. Hopefully we will all gain a little more understanding then “oh thats just a guard”. I know personally it always puts a smile on my face when someone shows me something about a form I never thought of before.

]]> By: Jesse http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/comment-page-1/#comment-38 Jesse Thu, 20 Mar 2008 05:15:08 +0000 http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/#comment-38 Jason, You are hoping that all these guys learned the basics as stated in your second to last statement. Learning the basics is just the beginning (and we can only hope that the black belt actually learned the basics-nuff said) Being able to understand what is truly taught is a totally different conversation. Instructor B, and C, may of never learned the reasoning behind the movements from instructor A, because either they quit to soon and did their own thing to early, or instructor A, never new the material thorough enough to teach it in the first place. I am not calling you out personally Jason, it is just an on-going theme that Matt and I have talked about many times and you have touch on personal themes that get me going. It is great conversation and the beginning of the quest for many SKK practitioners of the 2000's to find out what their teachers - teachers discarded as irrelevant because they themselves did not understand at the time. The Internet is our greatest adversary if your willing to except the truth and also our greatest adversary if we are not willing to except our faults. In Peace, Jesse Jason,
You are hoping that all these guys learned the basics as stated in your second to last statement. Learning the basics is just the beginning (and we can only hope that the black belt actually learned the basics-nuff said) Being able to understand what is truly taught is a totally different conversation. Instructor B, and C, may of never learned the reasoning behind the movements from instructor A, because either they quit to soon and did their own thing to early, or instructor A, never new the material thorough enough to teach it in the first place. I am not calling you out personally Jason, it is just an on-going theme that Matt and I have talked about many times and you have touch on personal themes that get me going. It is great conversation and the beginning of the quest for many SKK practitioners of the 2000’s to find out what their teachers – teachers discarded as irrelevant because they themselves did not understand at the time. The Internet is our greatest adversary if your willing to except the truth and also our greatest adversary if we are not willing to except our faults.
In Peace,
Jesse

]]> By: matt http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/comment-page-1/#comment-37 matt Wed, 19 Mar 2008 02:46:08 +0000 http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/#comment-37 I'd like to thank all three of you for your well thought out comments. I sure don't have the answers for this, and I'm just happy that this discussion is even happening. I’d like to thank all three of you for your well thought out comments. I sure don’t have the answers for this, and I’m just happy that this discussion is even happening.

]]> By: Jason sexton http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/comment-page-1/#comment-36 Jason sexton Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:21:03 +0000 http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/#comment-36 I still belive the combo's and forms are training tools,what is fat and what is meat depends on what I am trying to develop at the time.I don't believe that 27 or 12 or any other technique are perfect ,however I find movements in all of them that are usefull tools.now here is the catch. I have to work them,experiment with them,revisit them.I work them right and left handed,I work them off kicks,off grabs,and try to apply them in realistic sparring.I used to box some, and in boxing there are a limited amount of techniques,but there are also rules.the goal of boxing is to win the bout,the goal of kempo for me is to survive.maybe master a taught master b a certain set of techniques,and master b felt he could alter them to be more effective,and they were for HIM.Well along comes master c and he changes a few things,maybe adds a few things .my point is , all these guys learned the basics,then made it work for them.so what is fat?anything that hampers my personal growth in the art I still belive the combo’s and forms are training tools,what is fat and what is meat depends on what I am trying to develop at the time.I don’t believe that 27 or 12 or any other technique are perfect ,however I find movements in all of them that are usefull tools.now here is the catch. I have to work them,experiment with them,revisit them.I work them right and left handed,I work them off kicks,off grabs,and try to apply them in realistic sparring.I used to box some, and in boxing there are a limited amount of techniques,but there are also rules.the goal of boxing is to win the bout,the goal of kempo for me is to survive.maybe master a taught master b a certain set of techniques,and master b felt he could alter them to be more effective,and they were for HIM.Well along comes master c and he changes a few things,maybe adds a few things .my point is , all these guys learned the basics,then made it work for them.so what is fat?anything that hampers my personal growth in the art

]]> By: Justin Terrien http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/comment-page-1/#comment-35 Justin Terrien Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:02:19 +0000 http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/#comment-35 When does it become something else? Well if the system still has the numbered techniques it is SKK, right? How many times have we worked out with someone from a different teacher than ourselves and found a dozen differences in the techniques and forms? Doesn't this change the system? If no and we say that the roots are still the same then shouldn't we drop all the offshoots and just call it Kempo? When we study other systems of Kempo/Kenpo and look with eyes wide open we see the similarities as well as the differences, but when the differences can vary so far between two schools just down the street then whats in the name. As Jesse stated it's no longer SKK if you have the brass to change it and (hopefully) the principles to go along with it. But then again it's just a name. Does my school of SKK have all the same techniques as yours? Probably not, through seminars and "inivation" we make subtle changes, add, subtract. Even through different understandings of form application we make changes. Some would say this changes the art, personally its a name we hang over the door that people might recognize if they have studied. New people walking through the door have no idea that Kempo may or may not be different then Kenpo. As for the less is more, I'm in the more is better stage. Not to say who is right or who is wrong, this is just my preference at the moment. I may come to some realization someday in my training that I can cut the "fat", who knows. I suppose as long as we are comfortable with the name on our logo, the belt around our waiste, and the knowledge in our head then we are on the right path. When does it become something else? Well if the system still has the numbered techniques it is SKK, right? How many times have we worked out with someone from a different teacher than ourselves and found a dozen differences in the techniques and forms? Doesn’t this change the system? If no and we say that the roots are still the same then shouldn’t we drop all the offshoots and just call it Kempo? When we study other systems of Kempo/Kenpo and look with eyes wide open we see the similarities as well as the differences, but when the differences can vary so far between two schools just down the street then whats in the name. As Jesse stated it’s no longer SKK if you have the brass to change it and (hopefully) the principles to go along with it. But then again it’s just a name. Does my school of SKK have all the same techniques as yours? Probably not, through seminars and “inivation” we make subtle changes, add, subtract. Even through different understandings of form application we make changes. Some would say this changes the art, personally its a name we hang over the door that people might recognize if they have studied. New people walking through the door have no idea that Kempo may or may not be different then Kenpo. As for the less is more, I’m in the more is better stage. Not to say who is right or who is wrong, this is just my preference at the moment. I may come to some realization someday in my training that I can cut the “fat”, who knows. I suppose as long as we are comfortable with the name on our logo, the belt around our waiste, and the knowledge in our head then we are on the right path.

]]> By: Jesse http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/comment-page-1/#comment-34 Jesse Tue, 18 Mar 2008 03:00:30 +0000 http://kempoinfo.com/2008/03/17/when-does-it-become-something-else/#comment-34 When does it become something else? SKK is made up of a whole bunch of "Something Else" I Think it becomes something else when the person takes the leap of faith to go with what s/he thinks is right and make obvious changes. even better, they start from scratch and only the insightful ones can see where things came from. Most people today (me at this stage also) are making changes using the same techniques but applying them to where they see gaps in the system. It is not until we do something similiar (principle) to combination 16, but call it by a different name, will we have a different system then SKK (by name) It is the person with the brass and the fortitude to stick themselves out there and claim somthing new, but beware, the people who do this had better have the right intentions. They must do it for the love of the art and their students. If it is done just to be different or to stroke thier ego the system will fail. Catch me in the morning and i am sure i will have a different conclusion for all this. Great write up Matt. Jesse When does it become something else? SKK is made up of a whole bunch of “Something Else” I Think it becomes something else when the person takes the leap of faith to go with what s/he thinks is right and make obvious changes. even better, they start from scratch and only the insightful ones can see where things came from. Most people today (me at this stage also) are making changes using the same techniques but applying them to where they see gaps in the system. It is not until we do something similiar (principle) to combination 16, but call it by a different name, will we have a different system then SKK (by name) It is the person with the brass and the fortitude to stick themselves out there and claim somthing new, but beware, the people who do this had better have the right intentions. They must do it for the love of the art and their students. If it is done just to be different or to stroke thier ego the system will fail. Catch me in the morning and i am sure i will have a different conclusion for all this. Great write up Matt.
Jesse

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